Should senior leadership drive employee resource groups (ERGs)?

Transcript

Christine Dela Rosa:
The year was 1970. And the civil rights movement of the 1960s had brought the conversation about systemic racism into the mainstream. Racial tensions were high – just a few years earlier Rochester, New York had seen violent race riots. Now at the time, that's where Xerox was headquartered. Along with a group of Black Xerox employees, their CEO championed the idea of an internal group – one that would help Black employees network and organize together. And in 1970, they launched the National Black Employee Caucus – the first ever employee resource group. Since then, employee resource groups, or ERGs, have only grown in popularity. But how they're run is still up for debate.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Welcome to Work Check, an original podcast from Atlassian, makers of teamwork, software like Jira, Confluence and Trello. I'm your host Christine Dela Rosa. On this show, we take popular workplace practices and separate the hype from the helpful. Each episode, two Atlassians debate how the practice should be applied.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Today, we're talking about employee resource groups – ERGs – and other kinds of company affinity groups that focus on diversity, equity and inclusion. ERGs are usually focused on building community, fostering inclusivity and offering support for professional development. They're often voluntary and employee-led with the blessing of HR and leadership.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Then, there are business resource groups – or BRGs – which usually have the same goals as ERGs, plus they're aligned with the business' strategic goals. They may be used by the business to support decision-making, recruitment or problem-solving in the company. And they're often more formally recognized and supported by senior leadership.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Today, groups like ERGs have launched at 90% of Fortune 500 companies, but there still isn't consensus everywhere on who should run these groups – the leadership or the employees. So the question for today's debate is: should senior leadership be the driving force behind these groups? Or should the employees take the lead? Arguing that senior leadership should be in the driver's seat, we have Dominique Ward.

Dominique Ward: Time for real talk.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yeah. And arguing that leadership should take a backseat role, here's Shannon Winter.

Shannon Winter:
Let's get into it.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Shannon, you're up first. Tell us: why should employees be the driving force behind ERGs?

Shannon Winter:
All right. So Christine, you mentioned that one of the key goals of affinity groups is to build community. And that's actually a massive benefit I've experienced firsthand from my participation in an ERG-like group. A little over four years ago, I co-created a women's group at Atlassian. It was the height of the #MeToo Movement, political tensions were really high...

Christine Dela Rosa:
True story.

Shannon Winter:
...Yeah. And I mean, there was a lot to process to say the least. And I ended up coming together with some other women at our company who were craving community, just like I was. This allowed us to act quickly without necessarily waiting for leadership to step in with something more formal.

Christine Dela Rosa:
I should probably know this, but were they cool with that?

Shannon Winter:
Yeah, they totally were. And it was honestly amazing to be able to be the change and facilitate topics that were timely and top of mind for us. Everything from the #MeToo Movement, as I mentioned, to being interrupted in meetings or negotiating a raise.

Dominique Ward:
That's a big one.

Shannon Winter:
Right. All to say, we definitely didn't shy away from those hard conversations and instead, we created an environment where we could speak candidly about stuff we might not talk about at work otherwise. My point is if senior leadership had been driving the group, we might not have been discussing the topics that mattered most to us, and some members might have even felt inhibited to share as openly as they did. After all, leadership doesn't always fit the demographics of their ERGs.

Christine Dela Rosa:
That's for sure.

Dominique Ward:
True. I get all that. But honestly, in my experience, the real commiseration happens outside of the group forums. And the side chat is always open.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yeah.

Shannon Winter:
I feel you. Definitely a fair point. But having an employee-led ERG also means there's a community for you, even if you don't have access to those side chats. I want to bring in my guest Mekaelia Davis. She's the director of inclusive economies at the Surdna Foundation, a social justice based nonprofit. She seen the value of ERGs as safe spaces throughout her career and spoke about how essential it is that employees are in charge of those spaces.

Mekaelia Davis:
I think the challenge often is if you have someone come in who has a lot of power and you've created a space that doesn't center the folks who have less power, you're just replicating the inequity. So if the idea is to be deferential, you're not actually changing anything. In fact, you could be harming the folks who have less power, the employees, the workers. It's the walking on eggshells, right? They're not going to be their true selves. They're not going to contribute in a meaningful way.

Shannon Winter:
Right. Right. So she isn't saying leadership, can't be involved in groups like ERGs, but cautions that they need to take a backseat role to keep the space truly safe for members to show up fully.

Mekaelia Davis:
So if you have a senior leadership person coming into a space, they should be coming as participants and they should be checking their power at the door so that way people don't feel like there's retaliation for them saying something that may be contrary to the popular opinion at the time. If you're not doing those things, that's where you create danger for the employees. And so if you actually want to do this in a real meaningful way, you have to create some guard rails around who has the power and how that power can be used in the space.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. Fully tracking, but those guard rails, what do they actually look like in practice? Because I like the idea of theory, but I imagine it's pretty hard to implement those with your leadership team. Right?

Shannon Winter:
So Mekaelia mentioned that while she seemed groups allow leadership to participate in discussions, they maybe don't get a vote if the group has to decide on something. Or it can be about who gets to set the agenda, which was such an important part of the group I helped create. Bottom line is, if senior leaders are driving, it's going to be a lot harder to put those guardrails in place.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. That's fair. Back when I was a baby manager – like when I first started managing – I used to think my team could tell me anything, including when they didn't feel good about my direction. And I forgot that that dynamic works between peers, but not really when it comes from positions of power.

Shannon Winter:
Totally. And if you want ERGs to be safe spaces where employees feel they can be open and vulnerable, I say let the employees lead. It's better for members of the group if they can connect and commiserate without fear.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Hey, I understand. For the listeners out there – I was bobblehead nodding when you mentioned before that leadership doesn't always fit the demo of the ERG, which makes it hard for leadership to represent the group when they're not the ones immersed in the group's concerns or celebrations. And it's hard for the group members too.

Shannon Winter:
Yeah.

Christine Dela Rosa:
I'm thinking about the number of times I've been asked questions like, "Do you think you might just be overreacting to the situation?" And those are usually said by folks who I do not think have been put in similar situations. That said, you're move, Dominique. Tell us why you think senior leadership should be the driving force.

Dominique Ward:
All right. So I agree with some of what you're saying, Shannon. I've experienced how leadership can almost visibly suck the safety and openness out of a room. And I've also seen ERGs function as safe spaces for commiseration, but nothing more. My guest Frank Starling is the founder and chief diversity officer of Variety Pack, a DEI consultancy in England. He's worked on ERG strategy with a huge variety of companies, including working with the mayor of London.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Ooh.

Dominique Ward:
Yeah. Frank shared a story about transforming one client's ERGs from safe spaces run by employees into much more by putting senior leadership and executive sponsors and leadership roles within the groups. To counter your point about safe spaces, Shannon: they surveyed the group after this change and found that group members actually felt safer. Here's Frank.

Frank Starling:
We saw that it was a greater level of psychological safety. There was a greater sense of belonging because people felt like their voices were heard.

Dominique Ward:
ERGs are a lot of work. And when leaders are also putting in the work, that means something. When leadership drives ERGs, the work is legitimized and not just emotionally. They're also more likely to have financial support, like budget and compensation.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Truth.

Frank Starling:
When it comes to recognizing the work of the ERGs, we first need to acknowledge that doing the work of DEI could be taxing, it can be very triggering. The work of employee resource groups is critically important. It's as important as any other functional role in an organization. We need to start to think about how we are fairly compensating these individuals.

Dominique Ward:
This is a huge issue with ERGs. So many are volunteer-led, which means businesses are benefiting from free labor from these employees.

Shannon Winter:
No argument there. I can attest to it being a ton of work.

Dominique Ward:
I don't love the idea that senior leadership has to "buy into" the existence of these groups, but real talk you can't create effective programming for free.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. I see what you're saying. But I'd also be concerned that money can cloud a group's motivations, right? Like if a group is funded by a source that's not from "the people" and money talks, whose priorities are going to win out? I would hope it's the affinity groups priorities, but sometimes priorities from your funders can be persuasive.

Dominique Ward:
That's a fair question. But I think that leaders running these groups equitably will be able to really listen to their group and pull in the same direction. This is a situation for servant leadership...

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yes.

Dominique Ward:
...Where leaders are focused on enabling rather than walking in and calling all the shots. And in my opinion, compensating people is net good. And let's not forget that underrepresented people are often already doing unpaid labor in their day to day.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yes.

Shannon Winter:
Can I just pop in here for one second?

Christine Dela Rosa:
I'll allow it.

Shannon Winter:
Thanks. So I would never argue against paying people fairly.

Christine Dela Rosa:
That's the right answer.

Dominique Ward:
Why would you?

Shannon Winter:
So I want to bring up a great point my guest, Mekaelia Davis, made about compensation.

Mekaelia Davis:
I mean, that's what you would do with any consultant that you would hire. If you were bringing on someone to actually support some type of problem solving, you would pay them. And so I do believe that even if senior leadership is involved, not at the helm, but if employees are actually driving this, the labor of their employees should be compensated.

Christine Dela Rosa:
That is also true. I know companies like LinkedIn have recently committed to paying their ERG leaders, and that doesn't have to mean senior leadership is running the show. For the sake of time, I'm calling round one there. It seems we agree that compensation is important no matter who drives. So for me, that round boils down to: what is more likely to protect employee interests? Having a safe space for commiserating or being legitimized with senior leadership's time and resources? I really liked the point that leadership needs to put guard rails around their role in ERGs, so I'm going to go with...Shannon on the employee-led side.

Shannon Winter:
Thanks.

Dominique Ward:
As long as we're all getting paid.

Shannon Winter:
Amen.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. Dominique, keep us going into round two.

Dominique Ward:
Thanks, Christine. Okay. My next big point deals with the elephant in the room: performativity. So many of these ERGs are performative. They're highlighted on the company "About" page and aren't actually doing anything except clout chasing. But when leadership drives, they are motivated to actually be accountable to the group and their goals. My guest Frank Starling spoke last round about moving a client towards leadership-driven ERGs. In that case, each ERG was given an executive sponsor who was given clear OKRs – objectives and key results – related to their participation in the group.

Frank Starling:
So they could essentially become advocates. They could become ambassadors. They're talking about the ERG when the community members of the ERG aren't in the room.

Dominique Ward:
If leaders are given responsibility for the group, they're going to be more engaged and see their role as more than a passive ally. They get an opportunity to learn and deepen their understanding, and they can go out and act as advocates for the group.

Frank Starling:
We have to move beyond performative actions. And that's where senior leaders and executive sponsors play a crucial role in not just the formation of employee resource groups, but helping them to ensure that their advocacy gets to the highest level we actually start to see follow through.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Love this idea...

Dominique Ward:
Great.

Christine Dela Rosa:
...in theory. Because do we know what those OKRs would actually look like in reality?

Dominique Ward:
So they can vary. But Frank said some OKRs he set in the past are ambitious, like setting goals for a specific number of folks from underestimated and underrepresented groups in the senior executive level by a certain year.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Got it.

Dominique Ward:
Right. So things are trackable and data-driven. I love the idea of leadership having quantifiable goals they have to meet for their group.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Same.

Dominique Ward:
Whether you're collecting data or not, having senior executives driving these efforts is going to mean you have more advocates in leadership who can push for change, and more accountability.

Christine Dela Rosa:
All right. I like it. So quick memory lane – in past jobs, I've definitely seen affinity groups end up being performative. And one of the companies I worked with, we had ethnicity-based affinity groups that put on events for heritage months.

Dominique Ward:
I know where this is going.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yeah. Basically, someone would be tapped to represent their community, and they do a presentation about their history or share food at a town hall. Fun perk for staff, yeah? But that's all it did.

Shannon Winter:
Yeah.

Christine Dela Rosa:
HR even referred to this group as an "extracurricular" club.

Shannon Winter:
Yikes.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Not great.

Dominique Ward:
That sounds way too familiar.

Christine Dela Rosa:
And on that downer of a note, Shannon, you are up.

Shannon Winter:
Great setup. Okay. Well, Dominique, I'm glad you brought up performativity because you're right. So many affinity groups are just used for show.

Dominique Ward:
True.

Shannon Winter:
But if senior leaders are driving the group, it's really hard to prevent power imbalances from making their way from the company into the ERG. And that can lead to some performative problem-solving within the group. That makes it way harder to interrupt biases or create radical change. Here's my guest Mekaelia Davis again.

Mekaelia Davis:
Whenever there's a power dynamic, it's just a performative experience. You're just checking the box to say that you did something. If you're going to solve a problem within an organization and you're going to continue to use the same exact thinking, the same perspectives that senior leadership has had that has presided over the company while the problem has developed, grown, continued, whatever, you're not going to get the solutions that you're looking for. So if you actually want new ideas, different ideas, where are you going to get them?

Shannon Winter:
Exactly. When employees drive the problem solving, they can come up with fresh new solutions rather than just upholding the status quo. And I actually love the idea of setting OKRs for ERGs. But who decides what OKRs take priority?

Dominique Ward:
That's fair.

Shannon Winter:
Who decides what accountability looks like? I think that leadership should be accountable to the employees, but employees should be steering the ship.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Yeah. There's a risk that power can muddle priorities. And when it comes to ERGs, priorities are complex – no group is a monolith. So I think it can be hard for leadership to represent the interest of all the different perspectives and priorities, even within one group.

Shannon Winter:
Yeah.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. Great round to both of you. The question I heard that round was: if leadership drives, are they more accountable or is it more performative if they aren't actually interrupting a power dynamic? Now I'm looking for the approach that drives the biggest potential change here. So I'm awarding...Dominique the winner of round two!

Dominique Ward:
Wonderful.

Shannon Winter:
Okay.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Great. Anyway, Dominique, please start us off for our final round.

Dominique Ward:
Great. At this point, I just want to remind us of the goals of these groups: fostering inclusivity, engaging employees, creating community – absolutely. But when it comes to ERGs, and especially BRGs – or business resource groups – the aim is also to align the ERG's goals with a higher level business strategy.

Christine Dela Rosa:
How so?

Dominique Ward:
Things like: attracting diverse talent, developing internal leaders and consulting on business strategy. This all brings me to my last point. Having leaders driving these groups means that they can affect change on this higher level. Here's Frank Starling again.

Mekaelia Davis:
Employee resource groups can become task forces, they can become internal consultancies. When you have tens of thousands of employees, to create change at that scale takes strategy, takes budget and it takes a village.

Dominique Ward:
When leadership is committed and engaged, the ERG can reach higher. They can support these larger missions like developing new leaders within the company, mentorship or recruitment. As a Black woman, I look at leadership. Every job I've ever taken has been because I wanted to learn from my manager, and their mere existence allowed me to see my potential future at that company. But unfortunately, I've never had a person of color as a manager and they are often a very small percentage of leadership teams.

Dominique Ward:
Now it's been proven time and time again that diversity is good for the company's bottom line. But frankly, I'm more interested in what serves the members of that group. If an ERG is given the ability to attract, develop, and support diverse talent, as well as promote marginalized voices to leadership roles – that is better for the members of the ERG and their experiences at work.

Christine Dela Rosa:
I definitely want to live in a world where that's the norm. Shannon, close us out.

Shannon Winter:
Okay. So ERGs are no doubt a helpful tool for recruitment, but that can be true even when employees are leading. And Dominique, you mentioned developing new leaders. Right?

Dominique Ward:
I did.

Shannon Winter:
Well, what better way to develop new leaders than by letting them actually lead? Mekaelia shared a story about her previous job at Prudential, where the ERGs are very much employee-led. Early in her career there, she was given a chance to help lead a portion of the Black Leadership Forum's conference.

Mekaelia Davis:
I had the opportunity one year to actually help co-design a panel at the annual conference. That was a great opportunity for me as a newer employee to actually sit alongside some of the senior of Black professionals at Prudential, learn about their experiences, but also build relationships. I thought that was so awesome. She was able to develop her leadership skills and actually showcase them in front of leadership. What better way to put herself on the map?

Dominique Ward:
That's true.

Shannon Winter:
And there's just one last story for my research that I think is particularly relevant here. A large telecom company had set up their ERGs with leadership at the helm in an effort to affect real change. But in reality, leaders in these groups were calling all the shots. And as fast as employees were signing up to participate, they were also dropping out.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Probably not their intended goal.

Shannon Winter:
Definitely not. They actually decided to do a total 180 and allowed the group to be more grassroots and employee-driven. And guess what? The groups became more engaged and employees were suddenly signing up and staying involved.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Nice.

Shannon Winter:
Employees were actually so embedded after the shift that when the company rebranded, they engaged 100 members from their various ERGs to act as consultants to make sure it was inclusive.

Dominique Ward:
Oh, wow.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Wow.

Shannon Winter:
I know. I love that story because it shows you can trust your employees to drive their own ERGs, And the business can still see huge strategic benefits while engaging employees and letting them shine.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Way to end round three on a positive, Shannon. So if a company is trying to use an ERG or BRG strategically, is it better for the leadership or employees to lead that group? I think either format can work to support these higher level goals. But in either case, leadership should be careful not to put revenue generating goals before the DEI goals. This debate is arguing what should happen. And I feel like leadership-led ERGs have more potential for concrete change. So...I'm awarding this round and the whole debate to Dominique on the leadership-led side!

Dominique Ward:
Awesome. Let's be the change.

Shannon Winter:
As long as we're making change.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Y'all, this was a fun one to judge because you really can have the best of both worlds. Here are some thought starters for our listeners to strike the right balance. In my view, leaders can support in all of those tangible ways we heard before: creating a safe space, engaging, advocating, and maybe even compensating. But leaders also need to be aware of the dark side of how their power can impact programming. They should look for ways to cede power and allow the group to set the agenda, decide how to spend their budget and work intentionally to interrupt the power dynamics.

Christine Dela Rosa:
What they think is best for the group might not actually resonate with the employees themselves. So letting employees have a say in programming is key. And whoever is driving the group – businesses today need to authentically engage their employees in their DEI work. Performativity just doesn't cut it. That's all for our episode on ERGs. Shannon and Dominique, thanks for your points and vulnerability.

Shannon Winter:
Thanks, Christine.

Dominique Ward:
Always a pleasure.