Should you really wear pajamas to a Zoom meeting?

Transcript

Christine Dela Rosa:
Welcome to Work Check, an original podcast from Atlassian, where we take everyday workplace practices and debate if they're actually working for us. And today, we're asking, "Should you really wear pajamas to a remote work meeting?"

Dominique Ward:
No.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Last year, a study from Zoom revealed that 41% of users admit to wearing a nice top paired with pajamas on the bottom to a meeting. That said, should we re-evaluate what we wear to work? 

I'm your host and judge, Christine Dela Rosa, whose friends would call her fashion style "pajama chic." Joining me today to defend pajamas on Zoom, we have Maren Hotvedt who tells me her most expensive pair of shoes are a pair of luxurious slippers.

Maren Hotvedt:
Thanks, Christine. Excited to be here, and of course I'm wearing those slippers.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Nice. And debating Maren today, arguing against pajamas on the Zoom call, is Dominique Ward who tells me she's worn the same red lipstick nearly every day for over 10 years.

Dominique Ward:
Thanks, Christine. And today I'm dressed for the occasion.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Of course you are. Our first debate of the season – exciting! Let's begin. As your judge, I'm looking to hear your most compelling evidence and strongest counters to your opponent's points. Now, I know you each have an expert guest in your corner, so you can drop their testimony whenever you see fit. At the end, based on what I hear today, I'll declare a winner.

Dominique Ward:
Dun dun dun.

Christine Dela Rosa:
To kick us off, let's hear from the pro-PJ side. Maren, tell us why pajamas are acceptable to wear to a work Zoom meeting.

Maren Hotvedt:
Thanks, Christine. I actually want to start with a little bit of a poll.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay.

Maren Hotvedt:
So right now, I'm wearing what I would describe as a gray waffle-weave loose-fit Henley shirt and I'm curious. Christine and Dominique, is this pajamas?

Christine Dela Rosa:
I don't know some of those words that you just said, but...I don't know. Did you sleep in them?

Maren Hotvedt:
I've been known to.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Then yes, I think so.

Dominique Ward:
I agree.

Maren Hotvedt:
Okay. Interesting. Well I've also been known to wear this shirt about once a week in Zoom meetings. So my first point is really that the lines between fashion, loungewear, and pajamas are really blurred today, especially in the context of Zoom meetings and remote work. Some pajamas are even nicer honestly than work clothes. Mary-Kate and Ashley's luxury label sells this beautiful three-piece silk set of pajamas that retails for $3,400.

Christine Dela Rosa:
What?

Maren Hotvedt:
And personally, if I spent $3400 on any piece of clothing, which I have not – including my wedding dress – you definitely bet that I would want to be showing that off. Getting back to this point of this being a fuzzy line, I want to talk a little bit about the history of pajamas. So the word pajama comes from the Hindi pajama, which means leg clothing. Originally, pajamas were just loose, lightweight silk or cotton trousers, sometimes with a shirt that were worn for lounging at home. I think this is a critical point because, especially with so many of us working from home today, the reality is we need to be more flexible with our idea of what is work appropriate. Recently, my husband had a meeting that was at 11:30 at night, which isn't totally typical.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Right.

Maren Hotvedt:
But we go to bed at 9:30 which – I know, I know.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Totally okay.

Maren Hotvedt:
We get up early. We like sleep.

Christine Dela Rosa:
I'm in that club.

Maren Hotvedt:
I think we all are after 30. But anyway, I digress. This meeting was at 11:30, we go to bed at 9:30. So rather than wait up, he literally went to sleep, woke back up for the meeting, and then went back to sleep. So he stayed in his pajamas the whole time and I don't think anybody noticed because pajamas are just a tee-shirt and shorts and you can't tell what's a work tee-shirt, what's a sleep tee-shirt. What's really the difference here these days?

Christine Dela Rosa:
Well I thought that was an excellent opener, Maren. But Dominique, do I hear a rebuttal coming?

Dominique Ward:
I would decline the meeting, but that's neither here nor there. Listen, absolutely: the lines between work and life are getting blurry. We're working from bedrooms, from closets, and it's really hard to make that separation. But the right clothing can actually help us set some boundaries. Work is work and virtual or not, this is still work. We're not hanging out on your sofa or watching a movie in your bed. Your boxers, your silks, your holey vintage Dinosaurs tee that says “Not The Mam!”a on the front has no place in the workplace even if that workplace is in the metaverse. Getting dressed for work can mark the start of the workday, just as a commute on the Manhattan-bound C train once was. For me, my morning commute now looks like putting on a pair of pleated pants and some lipstick. It helps me set that boundary. There's a reason "dress for success" is a common idiom. How we show up matters and to back that up, I'd like to bring in my guest, Dr. Regan Gurung. He's a professor of social psychology at Oregon State University. He studies the psychology of clothing.

Regan Gurung:
Very often we perform better when we are wearing the clothing that the job requires. There's an area of research referred to as "enclothed cognition" and the enclothed cognition research basically says that clothing serves both a symbolic function, but also a physical function. For example, a doctor wearing a lab coat.

Dominique Ward:
He's referring to a study where researchers compared how doctors performed tasks when they were and were not wearing a lab coat.

Regan Gurung:
So in this study, this is Galinsky and colleagues, what they did was they tested people's performance. And when they were actually wearing that lab coat, they paid more attention, they made fewer errors on a task. Just wearing that lab coat actually changed performance.

Dominique Ward:
So whether we recognize it or not, our sartorial choices have meaning and that meaning influences our confidence, our focus, or even our ability to think abstractly. If I'm wearing my suit, I'm ready to make deals. If I'm wearing pajamas, I'm ready for bed.

Christine Dela Rosa:
That's so interesting. It seems like for those that are used to being more formal and associating that with office work, that makes sense. But there's also the flip side for people who are more like me who just feel more comfortable and relaxed in less businessy attire. So what about those folks?

Dominique Ward:
Well I'm not saying that we all need to dress formally. I think we should dress for what's appropriate for the job that we're doing and whatever we associate that clothing with. I doubt that everyone associates pajamas with doing work.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Interesting. Maren, what have you got?

Maren Hotvedt:
There's a lot to unpack here. I'm really curious though. When's the last time either of you wore a suit to work?

Dominique Ward:
Ah, just three weeks ago. I have a nice, dusty rose suit that I wear. In fact, I'm looking at it right now.

Maren Hotvedt:
Okay. Okay. Christine – PJ chic?

Christine Dela Rosa:
I was trying really hard to think back to ... I think for my last interview, which is generally the only time that I wear suits and it is the same one that I've worn to every interview I've had in the last 15 years.

Maren Hotvedt:
Yeah, I think I'm the same. I don't even own a suit anymore.

Christine Dela Rosa:
To be fair, I could up my game a bit based on what I'm hearing from Dominique. Unless Maren, unless you disagree and have a counterargument.

Maren Hotvedt:
So first of all, I have familiarized myself with this study that Regan mentions on lab coats and I have a lot of thoughts, not scientific but a lot of thoughts nevertheless. The first is that I find it very ironic that they're talking about a profession where the rest of the outfit is scrubs, which I personally see as loose trousers and a loose top, AKA pajamas. Think about it. Looking at a bit of a more scientific answer, there's also evidence that when people are able to wear the clothes that they're comfortable and confident in, morale is higher and research ties comfort to better ability to think and learn. High heels are a perfect example to me of restrictive and uncomfortable professional attire that women are, in some professions like law, forced to wear to fit in, but is that really making them better employees? Is that really making them feel like they're going to win the case or is it just making them uncomfortable?

Maren Hotvedt:
It's not only women too that suffer from this kind of pinched toe effect. I found an example from all the way back in Abraham Lincoln. He had hard-to-fit size 14 feet-

Christine Dela Rosa:
Wow.

Maren Hotvedt:
... and really struggled with foot pain. One of the things he was known to say frequently is, "When my feet hurt, I just can't think." So this to me is kind of this fine line between what is professional and what makes you feel confident and what is comfortable. Do they really have to be at odds with one another or are there now options in today's society that can suit both needs?

Christine Dela Rosa:
That is a great question that I'd love the answer to. Dominique, do you have one?

Dominique Ward:
I think it's a big leap to go from pinched toes in high heels to attire meant for bed. There's a happy medium somewhere and I think that you can be comfortable in clothes that don't involve piping and bad satin. Presumably when you were going to the office before, you were also wearing comfortable clothes. Obviously that is not the case for all professions, but just because we're at home doesn't mean we need to descend more into absolute lounge wear.

Christine Dela Rosa:
No, that's true.

Dominique Ward:
Now if that's settled, I'd like to move onto my next point which is about perception. The way we dress is our way of communicating our identity and how we want people to perceive us. For many women and particularly people of color, the signals of your clothing are even more important. Without going too far into respectability politics, it's important to remember stereotypes and unconscious bias are often hard at work here, meaning other people's perception of what you wear and how you wear it feed into the perception of how educated you are, whether you're ready, and actually whether or not you're suited for a job.

Christine Dela Rosa:
I feel that.

Dominique Ward:
In fact, Regan and a student of his recently did a study looking at how clothing effects how Asian-American women are perceived.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Clearly this resonates with me. Please, please tell me how people perceive Asian-American women.

Dominique Ward:
Here's Regan.

Regan Gurung:
We compared Asian-American women and white women and we varied whether the women were wearing business clothes or casual clothes. We measured how they were perceived. Were they objectified? Did they show strong personal characteristics? Were they shown to be competent and so on? In this particular study because we were really interested specifically in alleviating or defusing Asian-American stereotypes, we used the research on stereotyping to say what are ways that Asian women are regularly seen in the media. Very often there are these stereotypes of Asian women as quiet. We could see that by tweaking what outfit they were wearing, we could change how quiet they were seen to be. So we could actually reduce the stereotype of shy, quiet Asian woman by changing what outfit they wore. The business clothing led to these women being rated way better than if they were wearing the casual clothing.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Oooh, I do like to rebel against the stereotype. But I guess dressing casually might not work in my favor the way I thought.

Dominique Ward:
Yeah, but listen, the point here isn't "women, watch what you wear" but rather that what we wear isn't as simple as just be comfortable – especially for women and people of color. We are swimming in a sea of bias and our clothing is, for better or worse, a tool we can use lest it be used against us. When I show up dressed and ready to go in my pleats and red lip, not only do I feel ready to make deals, people perceive me to be ready to make those deals.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Great point. Doesn't just effect us, but the people that we interact with.

Dominique Ward:
Absolutely.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Now, Maren. How do you respond to this idea?

Maren Hotvedt:
Dominique, I am so glad that you brought up this idea of perception. Clothing is, kind of always has been a huge source of bias as we've seen reflected in dress codes throughout history. To help me unpack how fashion has evolved and how this is a much larger trend, I want to bring in my guest. Deirdre Clemente is a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas whose work is focused on the history of American fashion. We had a great chat about the history of controlling what we wear to work and where that's headed in the future. So I'm going to play a chunk of our conversation for you guys now.

Maren Hotvedt:
In your role as a fashion historian, as a professor, how do you dress for Zoom calls, especially when working from home?

Deirdre Clemente:
Well I would certainly say that my wardrobe personally is indicative of the wider changes in the American wardrobe. I do wear a lot of athleisure. Academics aren't exactly the most known for their fashion sense.

Maren Hotvedt:
What about on the feet? I'm curious.

Deirdre Clemente:
Honestly I wear my Uggs pretty much 24 hours a day.

Maren Hotvedt:
Okay. Okay. So we're in a moment of casualness in what we wear to work. Can you contextualize this for us within the larger historical trend and sort of the trajectory of work wear?

Deirdre Clemente:
Well the history of American work wear is really something that was regulated by the actual workplace and has remained regulated by the workplace. I think when you look at sort of the larger trajectory of office wear in the '70s, '80s, and '90s, you're really seeing a pushback on Human Resources-derived rules. In the '70s, there's a lot of hubbub in offices about women having to wear pantyhose, but in the '80s in Silicon Valley, you really start to see this conversation about revisiting the idea of "appropriate" work wear.

Maren Hotvedt:
I think we're both in agreement that clothing has gotten far more casual over the last century plus. I'm curious what the reactions have been and what it was that they were worried about.

Deirdre Clemente:
From a historical perspective, dress codes and people that enforced or endorsed dress codes, the old guard, often comments and they say, "Oh, we're worried about women's morality. Everybody looks like they rolled out of bed." I mean it's the same story in the 1920s, 1950s as it is today when people get all wigged out about the rise of casual dress in the workplace. And like, this love of nostalgia, "When I was your age, we always wore a blank blank and a blah blah." It's like, "Yeah, guess what. Times change. Clothing is a representation of change." I mean women in pants, you thought the world was coming to an end. Like, "Who do they think they are or why do they have to look so ugly? Why do they want men's clothes when they look so pretty in skirts?"

Maren Hotvedt:
But only if they have pantyhose.

Deirdre Clemente:
Yes, exactly. I mean historically, dress codes have been rooted in controlling both women and the clothing of people of color. I have to say I see very little value in dress codes. It's ways that the old guard tries to push back on change. I'm a cultural historian, man. That never works out well.

Maren Hotvedt:
How has the pandemic kind of accelerated or changed trends? What is basically the COVID effect on our wardrobes and what is appropriate?

Deirdre Clemente:
If you look at historical precedent, social upheaval really speeds into real life, things that were sort of percolating on the side. Right? Let's take women in short skirts in the 1920s, right? The hemline had been rising for three, four, five years before it really jumps in the context of the post-World War I fashion scene. Social upheaval as a means of spurring fashion change is absolutely fundamentally the way that the fashion system works. Now, what'll be interesting to realize for most people is that in those examples that history gives us, things don't go back to the way they were. I mean I think business casual will be the new formal as we go back to the workplace. History's taught us you don't go backwards. You go forwards.

Maren Hotvedt:
So that was some of our conversation. I think the points that Deirdre has made show us that as women, as silly as this may sound, it's kind of our role in history to be pushing those boundaries and really enabling future generations to have a better go of it than we have in terms of comfort in the workplace. And remote work has given us the perfect opportunity to relax standards and question the status quo. Really what I'm arguing is not that you can never wear a suit or that you can never look good, but that you shouldn't have to in order to be judged competent by your coworkers, especially for groups that in the past have been essentially repressed via dress codes.

Dominique Ward:
I agree with you 100%. We live in a patriarchal society that dictated the clothing of women and people of color since the dawn of time. But the thing is if there's no dress code, there's still an implicit one, and it's guided by subjective ideas of what professional is. And professionalism has historically been defined by and for white, heterosexual, cis men. Scrapping the dress code policy isn't going to fix the problem of bias and that bias implicitly and explicitly privileges whiteness and it discriminates against nonwhite, non-Western standards of professionalism. It leads to Black employees being sent home from work because of the way they dress, even though their white male counterpart is wearing basically the same thing, and women with natural hairstyles not getting jobs. So it becomes super ambiguous and really murky water and it means that you end up guessing and really repressing what you would typically show up in.

Dominique Ward:
So when you have this idea of, "Oh, we're going to eliminate all dress codes," you're really saying most people will be able to wear this and by most, you mean the majority – which typically in many arenas are white men, but everyone else, you could try to do this but you'll likely get reprimanded in some way. And so while we're trying to be a little bit more equitable, what we're really doing is moving the goalpost. And many women of color, people with disabilities, women, trans and nonbinary people, and many others have been running this race and are walking on a tightrope. Now, we're trying to change the game. I think instead we need to have a dress code that levels the playing field for everyone: a simple equitable dress code that doesn't put everyone in heels and a suit, but at least gets us out of our pajamas. If not just to reduce the ambiguity of "appropriateness" but as a signal to those around us that we should all dress to do what we came to do – work. By the way, legions of people worked remotely for years and it was never acceptable for them to show up to a presentation in their jammies.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Okay. So super powerful ending statement there, Dominique. Very personal ending statement there too, Maren. Both of you have given me a lot to think about. And I got to tell you, I'm not proud of this, but I went into this debate thinking very selfish thoughts of like, "Oh, how does that affect me? How can I work as a remote worker with pajamas on or off? Let me think about that." I went into this debate pretty biased, thinking I am more comfortable and therefore more productive in pajamas and that's all I got to care about. But Dominique, I did not think about all the different ways in which other people may be receiving signals from what I'm wearing, for how I'm showing up and presenting to them, and especially as an Asian-American woman, I really heard that study you brought and immediately started thinking back to other meetings where I ,wasn't necessarily the most formal in the room and wondered whether or not that had an impact. However, to counter myself again-

Dominique Ward:
Of course.

Christine Dela Rosa:
... Maren, I really heard your last final statement and heard that if we wanted things to change, to Dominique's point in terms of what is the status quo for different people, maybe I should wear pajamas and be seen as serious and be taken seriously. And perhaps that'll help change things up. So in a very personal, very subjective opinion on what I want to do, I would like to continue being able to wear what some people deem as pajamas and change the very inequitable standards as one person. Is that something that all of you should do? I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying for me, that is how I feel after this debate and therefore, Maren, you are declared the winner of this debate!

Dominique Ward:
Wow.

Maren Hotvedt:
Wow. Dominique, I will say as a concession, I think I need to get some red lipstick to pair with my pajamas.

Dominique Ward:
There you go.

Maren Hotvedt:
Then I will be equally as chic as you look right now.

Dominique Ward:
I appreciate that.

Christine Dela Rosa:
Honestly, well done both of you. For anyone out there that wants to dig into the details of this episode, you can see the transcript and other relevant perspectives on Work Life at atlassian.com/workcheck. Until next time, this is Work Check, an original podcast from Atlassian. Okay. Bye!